Israeli historian Ilan Pappé: ‘This is the final stage of Zionism’ | News of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

Copenhagen, Denmark – On a frigid Saturday morning in Copenhagen, Ilan Pappe is warming up in the cinema, chatting and joking in fluent Arabic with a soon-to-be-speaking conference organizer between sips of black coffee from a paper cup.

Unlike other Israelis, Pappe said, he learned the language of the “colonizers” by spending time in Palestine, surrounding himself with Palestinian friends, and taking formal Arabic lessons.

Hundreds of academics, officials, international human rights activists and ordinary Danes horrified by Israel’s genocide against Palestinians in Gaza attended the event in the Danish capital, hosted by the European Palestinian Network.

The group was founded recently, and its membership includes Danes of Palestinian origin.

Later, Pappe told the audience that since the outbreak of the latest Israeli war on Gaza, he had been shocked by Europe’s reaction.

“I share with many people’s surprise about the European position,” he said on stage. “Europe, which claims to be a model of civilization, has ignored the most televised genocide in modern times.”

On the sidelines, Al Jazeera interviewed 70-year-old Pappe, a prominent Israeli historian, author and university professor who has spent most of his life fighting for Palestinian rights. We asked him about Zionism, solidarity, and what he thinks the changing American political landscape means for Gaza.

Al Jazeera: You have long said that the tools of Zionism, the nationalist political ideology that called for the creation of a Jewish state, included land seizures and evictions. Over the past 15 months, Gaza has suffered daily mass killings. What stage of Zionism are we witnessing?

Ilan Babi: We are in a country that can be described as neo-Zionist. The old values ​​of Zionism are now becoming more extreme, (in) a much more aggressive form than they were before, and are trying to achieve in a short time what the previous generation of Zionists were trying to achieve in (a) much longer, more gradual, incremental way.

This is an attempt by a new leadership of Zionism to complete the work it began in 1948, which is to formally seize all of historic Palestine and get rid of as many Palestinians as possible and in the process, (this) something new, which is to create a new Israeli empire that its neighbors will fear or respect – and thus Able to expand regionally beyond the borders of Mandatory or historic Palestine.

Historically, I am willing to say with some caution that this is the final phase of Zionism. Historically, such developments in ideological movements, whether colonies or empires, are usually the last (i.e.) harshest, most ambitious chapter. After that, they increase, then they fall and collapse.

Al Jazeera: We are days away from a new political scene with Donald Trump heading to the White House for the second time. He has a louder voice on social media with tech billionaire and X owner Elon Musk, who praises Israeli policies and its military, among the prominent figures in his administration. How do you see the impact of the presidency on Israel? Will the war on Gaza continue?

cartoon: It is very difficult to see anything positive during Trump’s second term and in his associations with Elon Musk.

The future of Israel and Zionism is linked to the future of America.

I don’t think all Americans are Trump supporters. I don’t think all Americans are Elon Musk supporters.

(But) I’m afraid there’s not much that can be done in the next two or three years.

The only good news is that populist leaders like (US President-elect Donald) Trump and psychopaths like Elon Musk are not capable of this. They will bring down the American economy and America’s international standing with them, so it will be bad for America if it is led by this type of personality.

In the long run, I think that could lead to less US involvement in the Middle East. For me, a scenario in which there is minimal American intervention is a positive scenario.

We need international intervention not only in Palestine, but in the entire Arab world, but it must come from the global South and not from the global North. The Global North has left such a legacy that very few people would consider anyone from the Global North an honest broker. I’m very concerned about the short term, and I don’t want to be misunderstood. I do not see any forces capable of stopping the short-term disasters that await us.

When I see a broader perspective, I think we are at the end of a very bad chapter in humanity, not the beginning of a bad chapter.

Al Jazeera: Currently there are ceasefire negotiations. When do you expect Palestine to enjoy peace?

cartoon: I don’t know, but I think that even the ceasefire in Gaza is not the end, unfortunately, of course, because of the genocide. We hope that there will be enough force to tame it or at least limit it, if not stop it.

In the long term, I can see a long process. I’m talking about 20 years, but I think we’re at the beginning of this process.

It is a process of decolonization of a settler colonial project.

It could go either way. We know that from history. Decolonization can be very violent and does not necessarily lead to a better system or it can be an opportunity to build something much better, win-win for all parties involved and the region as a whole.

Al Jazeera: For Palestinians and many observers, it is as if the world stands by as Israel expands on its neighbors and carries out genocide with impunity.

Babi: Well, the last stage from a historical point of view is a long process. It is not an immediate process, and it is not a question of if it will happen, but a question of when. Of course, this may take some time.

There are regional and global developments that allow this stage to continue. Whether it is the rise of populist politicians like Trump, the power of multinational corporations, the rise of fascism, right-wing neo-fascism in Europe, or the level of corruption in some Arab countries, they all work in a way that maintains the sustainability of the state. A global alliance allows Israel to do what it does, but there is another alliance.

It doesn’t have the same power, but it’s widespread and connected to a lot of other struggles against injustice, and it’s quite possible, if not in the near future, that later this kind of global sentiment that doesn’t just focus on Palestine, focuses on the phenomenon of Global warming, poverty, migration, etc A more powerful political force, and every small victory of this other global alliance brings the Zionist project closer to the end.

Al Jazeera: What is the relationship of this other alliance? What could help their cause?

cartoon: There are two things. First, we don’t have an organization that has this kind of goodwill, support, solidarity and this energy to fight injustice. It needs proper organisation, and some of the young people who are part of this coalition seem to hate, for good reasons, organizations and so on. But you need this infrastructure.

The second thing is to abandon the purist approach that these movements took in the past and create networks and alliances that take into account that people disagree even on basic issues, but are able to work together to stop the genocide in Gaza, and liberate the colonized people.

Al Jazeera: Returning to the strongest coalition that you say supports Zionism, you talked about the rise of the extreme right in Europe. However, there are still strains of anti-Semitism among them.

cartoon: This unholy alliance has been around since the beginning. If you think about it logically, both anti-Semites and Zionists, when it came to Europe, had the same goal, they did not want to see Jews in Europe. Seeing them in Palestine could be a target for both the Zionist movement and the anti-Semitic movement.

Now there is a new layer of unification of ideas between the New Right and Israel, and this is Islamophobia.

The New Right now, although it still has strong anti-Jewish, specifically anti-Semitic elements, mainly targets Muslim and Arab communities. It does not target Jewish communities in particular.

They view Israel as the most important anti-Islamic and anti-Arab force in the world, so there is also identification at that level – but of course, this is something Jews outside of Israel would regret if they were part of such an alliance. Even pro-Israel Jews in Europe feel some discomfort about (those who) wear the Israeli flag, but at the same time the Nazi flag.

We hope that this will make them rethink their connection to Israel. We are already seeing signs, especially in the American Jewish community among the younger generation, that they understand that Israel is now part of a political alliance with which they, as American Jews, cannot identify.

As we say, it allows Israel to continue because of Trump and the populist leaders, but it is also something that will not last forever in the future.

Al Jazeera: The genocide has led many, including some Jewish groups, to examine the creation of Israel and the historic ethnic cleansing of Palestine. Have you seen families divided because of their understanding of the conflict?

cartoon: This does not happen (in Israel) but it certainly happens with Jewish families outside Israel.

The amount of information flowing is so great that the younger generation cannot be blind. Even if they have a very good Jewish education, more than that, they can see the immorality of Israeli action.

It is mostly a generational conflict, which is a positive sign because it means that the current generation may be more consistent in this situation.

Al Jazeera: But inside Israel, young people can also access documentation of the genocide through social media and TikTok. But many still ignore the suffering of the Palestinians

cartoon: They did not receive the same education as young Jews in America. They have the education of a very indoctrinated country. This is the key. They are produced, if you like, by the Israeli education system.

I wrote an article in 1999 in which I warned that, given the Israeli curriculum, the next graduates of this system would be racist fanatics, extremists and dangerous to themselves and others. Unfortunately, you were absolutely right.

This is the product of a highly indoctrinated society from cradle to grave.

You need to re-educate these people. You can’t just show them things and hope it moves them.

They can see dead Palestinian children and say, “Good, very good.” Dehumanization is part of the Israeli DNA and is very difficult to confront once you give them more information.